Fact Finder: Change In Campus Gun Policies? Watch Video Read Comments
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By Marc Schollett
Wednesday, October 28, 2009 at 12:43 p.m.

Read more: Local, State, Concealed Weapons, Campus, Guns, Marc, Schollett, Fact Finder, Schmidt, Firearms, Northwestern Michigan College, U of m, Ann Arbor, School, Violence, Guns on Campus, Fact Finder

If you read the signs, it's pretty obvious; there are some things you just can't do in some places at Northwestern Michigan College like smoking and skate boarding. But there won't be a sign prohibiting carry a concealed weapon on parts of campus if Michigan House Bill 5474 becomes law.

The bill has been introduced by State Representative Wayne Schmidt (R-Traverse City) who explains, "The purpose of this law is 2 fold. One is to make sure that at all of our colleges and universities, public institutions, you have the same set of laws and regulations concerning concealed weapons and firearms. Two, it really puts it back to the state legislature that the state legislature should determine where you can and can not carry, not individual universities and colleges."

If House Bill 5474 becomes law a few things on all public colleges and universities will change when it comes to firearms but some things will stay the same. Representative Schmidt wanted to set the record straight after what he described as erroneous reports. He explains "The bill that I have introduced does not allow concealed weapons in classrooms. It does not allow concealed weapons in sports arenas, stadiums. It does not allow weapons in dormitories. None of that will change. None of the exempted zones, hospitals, courtrooms, police stations, none of that will change."

So what would change if Representative Schmidt's House Bill 5747 becomes law? Right now, public institutions of higher learning can set their own policies regarding carrying a concealed weapon and that means different rules for different campuses. The Michigan State University Police Force pointed it out to lawmakers, and Representative Schmidt says the entire situation can be hard to keep track of. As he explains, "that's the gray area right now we see that University of Michigan for example does not allow any firearm on its campuses. Michigan State University does allow firearms on concealed weapons in their parking lots and of the areas. So if you go to a game at Michigan or Michigan State , you are a concealed weapon license holder, you have been through all the course, you have all the proper licensing and training you know you are going to the stadium at Michigan State University, you know you can lock it in your trunk, secure it. At The University of Michigan you could be parking at the University parking deck or right next door at the Ann Arbor City deck, one, your in violation of their ordinances and could go to jail, the other you are not."

So, House Bill 5474's goal according to Schmidt is to clear up that confusion. His bill does not actually establish carry and non carry zones. Instead according to Representative Schmidt "it levels the playing field and it makes it clear where law abiding citizens know where and where not to carry."

So how would it do that? How would the passage of this bill into law make one statewide standard in terms of campus standards for carrying a concealed weapon? By taking the authority to make such policies away from individual institutions, and handing them over to the state legislature. Schmidt says "we don't allow cities or townships or other local units of government to do this, why should universities and colleges be above state law. We as the state representing the people of the state are best positioned to say where and where not you should be able to carry that's the issue."

As you might imagine, reaction to the bill has been swift, but Schmidt says, not entirely based on fact. "I am surprised…. we have had some good reaction and some bad reaction. What I have seen out there, are the press releases from the anti gun groups that are factually incorrect. The difficulty is that there are a lot of gun bills out there, and nobody takes the time to read them. This is I understand an emotional issue. I had a cousin who was at Virginia Tech during the massacre. The difficulty with that argument is that was a gun free zone and we still had the problem what I am addressing is for law abiding citizens to make sure they don't become criminal."

But colleges like NMC which has a no weapons on campus policy, say protecting gun owner's rights costs. They fear it's their students who would pay the price. Here is what Tim Nelson; the president of NMC had to say in an email response to me:

"NMC has a primary responsibility to provide a safe and secure learning environment. To aid in carrying out that responsibility, we have a "no weapons on campus" policy. While I understand Representative Schmidt's position, NMC believes it is important for us to retain the ability to develop and enforce policies that govern behavior on campus. We and the Michigan Community College Association are on record as being opposed to House Bill 5474. In addition, we are opposed to Senate Bill 0749 which would allow concealed weapons in classrooms and dormitories. We do not believe these bills will add to the safety or security of our learning environment and in fact could do just the opposite. "

So what do you think? Should gun owners who have been licensed to carry a concealed weapon be allowed to carry their firearms on campus? Should individual colleges and universities be allowed to determine their own rules and regulations?

 

Let me know. Please leave a comment below.

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36 Comments on this Story
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really?

Posted by clayton madsen, manistee - Monday, November 16, 2009 at 1:02 p.m.

i know i'm a bit late comenting, but i am sickened. i am trying to write a paper to an elected official and i thought this would be a god topic. i didn't even read all of the posts, but the one that turned my stomach was one of the first ones, talking about the kids shooting a bb gun. ok they were wrong, very wrong, but is the person really saying that someone should have been carrying a gun and shot those kids because they were bing stupid?! that is the mentality that makes proposals like this one dangerous. i hope that our society is past the point of an eye for an eye, or show downs at high noon. the fort hood shooting should lead as an example. as i understand, it has been reported, some of the people shot was from "friendly" fire trying to stop the shooter. if you put 100 guns in an open enviroment with slightly trained people shooting a one target with adrenaline pumping, bullets are gonna fly every where hurting more people than just the one bad guy.

Agenda

Posted by M P, Traverse City - Wednesday, November 04, 2009 at 4:18 p.m.

Ask any person who was locked in the building at Virginia Tech if they wish there would have been a good guy there with a gun to help stop that madman. You already know the answer. If someone had returned fire on that guy he would not have been able to get as far and would have had to have turned his attention to that person or left the scene. Do you think had he passed a big sign on the way in "NO FIREARMS" he would have thought to himself...Gosh I guess I better not go in there. NO! He would have laughed to himself and then parked in a handicap spot. Do not expect someone else to protect you from evil. We were shot at by the BB Gun kids this winter while in a restaurant. Not knowing what they were shooting at us with we grabbed our infant and hid behind a pillar. It took the police 25 minutes to get there. 25 minutes are you kidding me!!! I was sick to my stomach. Are people that carry perfect? No but they are as good as the police in a pinch. My grandfather was a cop and he use to say "A gun in the hand is better than a cop on the phone any day! Don't be a sheep."

??!!

Posted by J T ., Up North - Saturday, October 31, 2009 at 7:29 a.m.

Jean!!! There is no such thing as a privilege in America!! If that's what you think than go back to your red army! lol

Sorry again

Posted by J T, TC - Friday, October 30, 2009 at 9:26 p.m.

jeannie knudsen, I know that carrying a pistol concealed is illegal if you are not licensed. You said and I quote...."ccw gives you the right to leaglly own/possess a handgun". You DO NOT need any license to own a handgun period. You also state that and I quote..."cpl gives you the right to carry concealed in public except where restricted such as courtrooms, certain businesses, etc. Huge difference." You yourself said it gives you the "right". So get off your self-righteous soapbox about being priveleged to carry a gun. If you happen to have a cpl yourself, well....!?

.

Posted by Tim T., MI - Friday, October 30, 2009 at 8:04 p.m.

Various states give different terms for licenses or permits to carry a concealed firearm, such as a Concealed Handgun License/Permit (CHL/CHP), Concealed Pistol License (CPL), Concealed (Defensive/Deadly) Weapon Permit/License (CDWL/CWP/CWL), Concealed Carry Permit/License (CCP/CCL), License To Carry (Firearms) (LTC/LTCF), Carry of Concealed Deadly Weapon license (CCDW), and similar. Many states that issue licenses to carry a concealed handgun also allow the practice of open carry by the license holder, and another 31 states allow open carry without any license.

ummmm...

Posted by Will Jones, TC - Friday, October 30, 2009 at 7:36 p.m.

This bill is saying something a little bit different to me.

Instead of the property owner's saying weather or not they can have guns on there property, it's saying that the government has the control to tell you if you can have guns on your property or not. The collage campus is private property. Some state funding but private none the less.

Trust me, I would like there to be guns everywhere!!! No big thing. Guns do not scare me. Without you having a way to even out the playing field with a violent criminal, you will always get the short end of the stick. (I think all men with a wife and kids will get this.) There are always more good guys than bad guys.

This bill has the right idea, but I think it has other plans. I would say the bill is meant to fool. Before you fully agree with something, decide if it is violating someone's liberty. The bad policies of the property owner are what you should be upset about. Tell them.

I remember guns in school

Posted by J B, bessemer - Friday, October 30, 2009 at 7:30 p.m.

Yep! I remember plenty of guns on school properties! Ever hear of Rifle season? Small Game season? Partridge?? There were always guns on school properties when I grew up. Now all the "hippies" are in control from the 60's and with their liberal backwash. Bill and Hillary were big hippies in their days, and look what they've done. Open carry in Michigan allows anyone to walk into K-Mart or Super One to shop even if the owner says they must leave, they still can carry anywhere and that includes the places people with CPL's cannot carry. To date their , as far as I know, ever an incident where a person who weld a CPL ever went "wild west" like all these nay-sayers have blurted out. Even the Mayor (Liberal Dem) of Newark, NJ came out and said this fact. People with CPL's are more aware of their surroundings that some ditz yacking on her cell phone while driving 55MPH on the road.

jeannie knudsen

Posted by S W, Houghton County - Friday, October 30, 2009 at 6:25 p.m.

Apparently you are one of the misinformed. CCW (carrying a concealed weapon) is a criminal charge in Michigan. Other states do offer CCW permits which allows a person to Carry Concealed WEAPONS (not just handguns). In Michigan it is a Concealed Pistol License (CPL), others have Concealed Handgun Permits (CHP), Permits to Carry (PTC), Handgun Carry Permits (HCP), among others. All of which are essentially the same, just different names throughout the different states, with the exception of those states which allow weapons in general, instead of just handguns.

Also, a CPL doesn't give you a RIGHT to carry concealed, it is a PRIVILEGE.
If something needs government permission it is a privilege and not a right.

Wrong

Posted by J T, TC - Friday, October 30, 2009 at 6:12 p.m.

Sorry to correct you, but you do not need a license to own a pistol. While you do need to get a purchase permit to buy one you don't need any sort of license to own one. A CPL & CCW are two in the same, not separate.

huge difference between cpl and ccw

Posted by jeannie knudsen, northern MI - Friday, October 30, 2009 at 11:21 a.m.

most people are mis- or uninformed of the huge difference between ccw and cpl concerning handguns. ccw gives you the right to leaglly own/possess a handgun - not the right to carry wherever you want. cpl gives you the right to carry concealed in public except where restricted such as courtrooms, certain businesses, etc. Huge difference.

WOW...

Posted by J T, TC - Thursday, October 29, 2009 at 10:54 p.m.

Well here we go...MR. Anonymous Anonymous, Flushing..your post couldn't be farther from the truth!..Did you even read the fact finder let alone the proposed bill? All this bill does is make it legal for someone who is a "Concealed Pistol License" holder, which you have to be 21 to obtain, to have a pistol on campus. You still cannot have it in the dorms or classrooms as you stated. Same goes for you Mr. Jackson, the law is already on the books. Colleges have taken it upon themselves to supercede state law. IF they wish to forgo state funding and be completely private and self sufficient, fine, but if they are getting any of my tax money then they can follow the rules that everyone else does. It is simple clarification of the law. Now for those interested and want to take the time to educate themselves on what it takes to get a CPL. It's not cheap and it takes great deal of time and involvement to get one. http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654---,00.html

A fact

Posted by Senior Citizen, Traverse City - Thursday, October 29, 2009 at 6:01 p.m.

Remember the average response time to a 911 call is over 4 minutes.
The average response time of a .357 magnum is 1,400 FPS.

Criminals are more likely to strike

Posted by jeannie knudsen, Northern Michigan - Thursday, October 29, 2009 at 3:43 p.m.

Sharon - yes, certainly it does matter to criminals if others are allowed to carry a handgun. Criminals are more likely to strike when they know full-well they won't be encountered by someone who has a weapon to defend themselves or others.

Thanks!

Posted by Sharon N., T.C. - Thursday, October 29, 2009 at 3:27 p.m.

Thanks Mr. Sitzema for educating me on the laws of open carry. That certainly helps me to understand why gun advocates would certainly support this effort.
I'm still not sure I can support students (those that are 21 yrs old)having guns on college/university campuses but I am re-thinkig the issue, maybe we can agree to this - allow all Administrative Staff (this would include professors/teaching staff)to open carry with the proper documentation to do so. This might give some crazy pause to go into a classroom and start shooting like the Virginia Tech guy did or the 2 guys did at Columbine, even though that wasn't a college campus.
Isn't it insane that we're even discussing this need to protect our kids in our schools? Crazy world we live in isn't it?

DIRECT TV PROBLEMS

Posted by Angela KEARNS, MESICK - Thursday, October 29, 2009 at 12:47 p.m.

Can you help? Alot of people we know, as well as us, are having trouble with the reception on our local channels, the sound just goes out or the picture on the screen, actually goes out temporarily. We have been told that it is a local problem, and Direct TV cant do anything to help. Is there anyone we can complain to about this, and/or teel them, so the problem can be fixed? Thank you, A. Kearns

More needless gun legislation

Posted by T. Michael Jackson, Traverse City - Thursday, October 29, 2009 at 12:34 p.m.

We have a state legislature that appears to be less than competent in almost every issue it has undertaken in the last two years. They have been a huge disappointment in support of health care, education, state infrastructure, the arts and many other areas. Why then should we think they are in a position to regulate where guns should be allowed?
If they, and the gun-supporting folks like the NRA believe so strongly in "individual rights", why should they not believe it is the right for institutions to excercise their right to appropriatly ban guns as they deem necessary?

Wrong Information.

Posted by Mr. Sitzema, Charlevoix - Thursday, October 29, 2009 at 12:15 p.m.

Sharon,
You are misinformed about the age at which a person can obtain a Concealed Pistol Licence. Any individual has to be 18 before they can obtain a purchase permit for a pistol, but they have to be 21 before they can obtain a CPL licence.
You cannot have the pistol in: an arena where there are 2500 or more people; a church unless you have permission from the pastor; a bar or any establishment where the primary source of business is alcohol regardless if it serves food; a school but you may keep it in your car in the parking lot.

I hope this information helps.

Another example of our disfunctional legislature

Posted by Harry Eick, Traverse City - Thursday, October 29, 2009 at 11:40 a.m.

Our legislators can't agree on a state budget in a timely manner, can't develop a formula to adequately support schools, continue to chip away support for social services, yet have time to consider trivial items like this that affect very few citizens. What a waste of resources.

Wow...

Posted by Sharon N., T.C. - Thursday, October 29, 2009 at 10:28 a.m.

Wow, this has created quite the dialog...good, I like a good debate!
I'm not sure I get "Whatever's" counterpoint that the crazies will get guns and carry them onto a campus - legal or not!!! I couldn't agree with you more! My point was that now we're going to pass a law to allow kids to carry a gun on a college/university campus. Have you been to a college campus on a Friday or Saturday nite lately? Have you been on a college campus lately after they've just won a big football game? Have you been on a college campus during Greek Week? It's a scene no parent likes to admit to, but it's a bunch of drunk (or drugged up) kids, TOTALLY OUT OF CONTROL!!! And now, we want to add guns to the scene?!? Call me naive, call me an over-reactionary, call me old-fashion, but that scene scares the hell out of me. 99.9% of our kids are responsible, good kids, it's the .1% that would and could do the damage and I just think you're opening a door for them that doesn't need to be opened.
Please look at the bigger picture. College campuses with gun-toting 18 year olds running all over...I just can't go there!!

Support, support, support

Posted by James Card, Kalkaska - Thursday, October 29, 2009 at 9:55 a.m.

There should not be any restrictions on anyone who has met the requirements to carry a CCW. We should have every right to defend ourselves against criminals. I wholly support the right to carry legally!

Gun Laws need to be changed..

Posted by Senior Citizen, Traverse City - Thursday, October 29, 2009 at 9:41 a.m.

I agree with everyone who supports the right to carry anywhere, anytime.

DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONTESTING THE VOTE.

It's our right....

Posted by ^^^^^^ ^^^^^^, N.M. - Thursday, October 29, 2009 at 8:59 a.m.

It's my oopinion that if you are able to purchase a gun LEGALLY, then you should be able to carry that gun ANYWHERE!!! Put yourself in a situation where a crazy gun yeilding person is randomly shooting innocent people. What would you do??? Me?? If I had the option to carry a gun, I would, and then I would use it on the crazy! Think about all the shootings that have happened already. I do agree with Douglas. I believe that if someone, or some people, carry guns, there would actually be lives saved.

We all remeember 9/11 and the great people who took down the plane. Maybe we all need to have that mentality. They risked, and unfortunately lost, their lives just to save others. I would do the same!

I just hope, that the people who are against guns NEVER find themselves in the same room with a crazy gun toting individual. Well, come to think of it, maybe they should. It might help change their outlook.

Gun Laws

Posted by John Moran, Onaway, Michigan - Wednesday, October 28, 2009 at 11:19 p.m.

There should not be any restrictions on anyone who has met the requirements to carry a CCW. We should have every right to defend ourselfs against criminals.

Safety on Campus???

Posted by C L, Lewiston, MI - Wednesday, October 28, 2009 at 10:54 p.m.

""It's going to take 1 incident where someone comes on campus and commits a violent crime against unarmed students""

What do you mean "going to take 1 incident"?? There have already been over a dozen such incidents.
For those worried about someone having a "gun" walking next to you, how do you know that is not happening today?? Is that person checked by the FBI?? All MI permit holders are..

not just for CCW holders

Posted by Anonymous Anonymous, Flushing - Wednesday, October 28, 2009 at 9:48 p.m.

If this law passed, it wouldn't just allow concealed weapons permit holders to have guns on campus,it would allow anyone 18 and up to keep their firearms in their dorm rooms. This bill says that the college could have no gun rules, period.

JT

Posted by June Thaden, Traverse City - Wednesday, October 28, 2009 at 8:53 p.m.

There is no place on a college campus for a concealed weapon, OR for any firearm. I can't fathom what our Representatives are thinking of when they propose such legislation.

NMC's weapons ban

Posted by Robert Feague, Traverse City - Wednesday, October 28, 2009 at 7:35 p.m.

Although most of the comments in this report were regarding hand guns you should be aware that NMC bans hunting weapons stored in the locked trunks of vehicles as well. So if you were planning to sprint out to the woods after class you will have to plan to run home first.

NO GUNS ON CAMPUS

Posted by BJ Christensen, Cedar - Wednesday, October 28, 2009 at 7:14 p.m.

Just because someone is licensed and trained to carry a concealed weapon doesn't mean they exercise good judgment. More guns just means more chances for someone to get killed when that person loses their temper. Someone could kill me for an opinion I express in class or because I talk to their boyfriend. Killing is final. There is no room for stupid mistakes.

gun laws

Posted by k k, traverse - Wednesday, October 28, 2009 at 6:28 p.m.

I feel all laws and policies should be the same be it for or against. However I dont believe now is the time to worry about this issue. Get back on track and make the budget and stop cutting education first priority!

Gun Policies

Posted by Chyck Miller, Ludington - Wednesday, October 28, 2009 at 6:24 p.m.

I own a right to carry permit although I mosstly obtained it so that I can keep it inside my truck and not have to carry it in the back, a truck has no trunk.

If I may carry it at MSU and not at UM. Someone please prove to me that I am safer in Ann Arbor! I am certain there are no more shootings at MSU than UM!

I do know that people that carry guns often do not register them (criminals or not)

No Restrictions.

Posted by Duane Durflinger, United States - Wednesday, October 28, 2009 at 6:16 p.m.

Criminals and unlawful individuals are in no way restricted from doing damage. Carry laws pertain only to lawful, licensed citizens. If licensed, there should be no restrictions. These are the good people who only wish to protect themselves and those around them. I would welcome them anywhere.

Guns

Posted by Douglas Roscommon, Roscommon - Wednesday, October 28, 2009 at 4:47 p.m.

It seems to me that way too many people have trouble "wrapping their little brain" around the gun issue. If there had been a armed student or facility member at some of the recent collage or school maybe the loss of life would have been less. They say the difference between a liberal and a conservative is that if a conservative don't like guns he doesn't but one. If a liberal don't like guns he wants them banned so noone can own one.

more comforting

Posted by What Ever, TC - Wednesday, October 28, 2009 at 3:51 p.m.

Sharon - the crazies are going to gain access to a gun and carry it on campus whether it is legal or not! I for one feel more conforted knowing that the good guy can now protect himself as well as others should there ever be such an incident.

I just don't understand the logic with people that think the way you do. Do you really think that murders and rapist have any respect for the law? Would it really matter to them if guns are or are not permited on property?

What???

Posted by Sharon N., T.C. - Wednesday, October 28, 2009 at 2:02 p.m.

I just can't wrap my little brain around the fact that we are even discussing an attempt to allow students, teachers and anyone else who happens to be walking the sidewalks of our our college/university campuses the opportunity to CARRY A GUN!?! Just the thought throws me in a stupper!!!
We all know that guns aren't the problem, it's the idiots that shoot the guns at innocent people. So, now we want to make the guns even more accessible to these idiots because there now going to be in every kids car trunk?? Or, God forbid, some idiotic school actually let's kids have them in their dorm rooms??
Of course, they'd have to be locked up...rigggght!!!
Folks, what are we doing to this country? Parents, where is the outcry??? How 'bout trying to divert a tragedy by actually "parenting" our children and be "pay attention" to their actions and pick up on cues that might give you suspicion that something is wrong!!!
We are so quick to want to put a band aid on such issues rather than going to the root of the problem and deal with it there. Our parents and grandparents always said, get to the root of the problem first!
Then work the solution from there.
Man oh man, I think we have bigger issues to deal with right now in this country than opening up this can of worms to watch it turn into another idiotic law that a small interest group pushed through because they were able to play on the "soft side" of some politician trying to score points.

Chief Operating Officer, Central Lake Armor Express, Inc.

Posted by Steve Baker, Traverse City area - Wednesday, October 28, 2009 at 1:59 p.m.

Why would you restrict an individual who has been licensed by the state, been through training and law enforcement background check, from exercsing the right given to them by both the 2nd amendment and the state of Michigan, as approved then by the local Sheriff and District Attorney? Check the statitics: crime committed by holders of a CPL (Concealed Pistol License) vs that of the population of Michigan as a whole: less than 1/4 of 1 percent by CPL holders; almost 7% by the population. CPL holders represent the best of the law abiding citizens of the state; they are responsible citizens, why do you find it necessary to restrict them? And, are the people making that type decision really knowledgable enough of the topic to truly pass that type judgment? I agree with the pending legislation that it should be controlled at a state level; these are state funded institutions that are governed by state laws and as such should operate consistent with established, prescribed state laws and regulations. Why are people so afraid of firearms? In the hands of responsible, law abiding citizens they are not a problem at all.

Safety on Campus?

Posted by T W, Williamsburg - Wednesday, October 28, 2009 at 1:14 p.m.

How are people safe on campus now if they have no way of protecting themselves against someone else who doesn't give a rip about "gun free zones" in the first place? It's going to take 1 incident where someone comes on campus and commits a violent crime against unarmed students that people will realize the only true "safety" there is is the ability to protect yourself.

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