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A lawmaker from northern Michigan has a new bill to protect our water, but a viewer has questions.

By Diana Fairbanks
Thursday, November 12, 2009 at 12:36 p.m.

Read more: Local, State, Environment, Politics, SCRIPPS, Water, Bill, Great Lakes, Diana Fairbanks, Fact Finder, Fact Finder

We are surrounded by water, but whose is it? Is it yours because it flows under your land, or is it all of ours? And is it a commodity, or a right?

As water becomes scarcer in parts of the country, many eyes are turning toward the great lakes.

And Michigan lawmakers are working to define and protect the state's water resources.

One new bill in particular is raising some questions. I sat down with the representative from northern Michigan who sponsored it for tonight's Fact Finder Report.

Many Michiganders think of the water of the Great Lakes as their own. And in a way, a new bill introduced by Representative Dan Scripps would make it so.

House Bill 5319 defines the waters of the state, including groundwater as being held in public trust.

Representative Scripps says, "This bill re-affirms the idea of the public trust in Michigan's waters. That our waters should be for use and enjoyment of present and future generations and that there are a lot of uses that go along with it that are sustainable for the long term but we're not going to allow uses that essentially could make the Great Lakes run dry."

There are other legal protections in place. But Representative Scripps says this bill goes further.

Rep. Scripps says, "Those are important in defining how much water you can use. The top limit on where you can get a permit from the state for water withdraws is 100,000 gallons if it impacts a trout stream, two million if it impacts the Great Lakes Basin. And that's great. It's important that we have that in place. What this does is say even with those limits if water is being used in a way that has a local impact, an individual trout stream would run dry or somebody's well would no longer produce, or basin wide impact, even if it falls within the limits, we have the ability to stand up and say that's not an appropriate use.

But a viewer contacted us with some concerns about this bill.

Jim from Northport writes "Rep. Dan Scripps is initiating legislation to have the State take over all water in the state including water rights of private property owners. I believe this will cause more bureaucracy and higher taxes without improving anything."

Rep. Scripps says, "I think the biggest misconceptions about this is the private property rights argument that this some way harms private property rights when exactly the opposite is true."

"this allows the individual property owner to stand up and say, hey, there are ways you can use this in industry or any other number of other uses, but if you are using so much that my well runs dry or you are using so much that the great lakes as a whole water system is in jeopardy then we are going to try and put a stop to that."

This bill, house bill 5319 has been introduced into committee. Representative Scripps believes lawmakers will start holding hearings on it and move on it after the New Year.

So what do you think about it?

Is it a good idea, or is it infringing on property owner's rights?

There have been some concerns that it is to vague.

Click here to read the bill for yourself.

Leave your comments below.

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14 Comments on this Story
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Mr. Olson

Posted by Mr. Sitzema, Charlevoix - Monday, November 16, 2009 at 2:06 p.m.

Would you care to comment on Jim Gurr's post? If his assessment of your involvement in this issue is correct, it does call into question the validity of your previous post.

Scripps Bill: AKA "The Camel's Nose"

Posted by Jim Gurr, Antrim County - Saturday, November 14, 2009 at 1:15 a.m.

Rep. Scripp's bill is a case in point of why an electorate should hesitate before sending a lawyer off to write laws I've met Rep. Scripps often enough to know he is sincere, if misguided. Notably, considering the "weighing in" on the issue of Counselor Olson, one must be made aware that significant elements of the "public ownership" crowd Mr. Olson represents, are very unhappy with their loss of "standing" in the Perrier Case. There, in a precedent-setting decision, MI Supremes ruled a plaintiff "genuinely" had to be harmed before they could become a party to a suit. This decision reversed nearly forty years of ever-increasing mischief-making enjoyed by the "human beings produce nothing but pollution" environmental cabal, and it really irritated them. From that moment, Mr. Olson embarked upon a crusade to re-acquire, through every ounce of persuasion in his capable means, the ability of any and all to interfere with permit applications and proposed uses of all of Michigan's natural resources. The Scripps bill is the furthest extension of the effort. Once enacted as law, anyone with $150.00 and an ax to grind, can initiate lawsuits to interfere in almost unimaginable ways with activities impacting unacceptably broadly-defined "natural resources" of the state. Significantly, local authorities can be dragooned into resource-protecting overreaches of authority by advocates for and against proposals brought before them. The bill has much less to do with the protection of natural resources and much more to do with expanding an extremist environmental agenda more closely tailored to pumped-up command and control dictators and oligarchs than is deserved to be suffered under by freedom loving citizens who have, after 150 years of wise decision making, created the garden we enjoy and have named Michigan. Do you remember the old tale about the camel's nose and the tent? Rep. Scripp's bill needs to be summarily rejected. It is not what it appears to be. It could more aptly be described as the Permanent Litigator Employment and Security at the Expense of Prosperity Proposal. Nice try; but, No Thank You.

And there might be loopholes in this House Bill too.

Posted by Mia Basmas, Traverse City - Friday, November 13, 2009 at 1:52 p.m.

To Rhonda Huff in Evart -- What are the loopholes that you speak of? Why not just close those loopholes,
without making new ones.

To Mr. Sitzema in Charlevoix -- you asked if the
State could charge you for the use of the water
under this House Bill. --
I think that this House Bill "may" lead us down
that path (hopefully not). That is why I am very
concerned with this House Bill. I don't believe
that we need anymore government involvement, or
taxes / assessments.
If the Politicans haven't figured out yet that
the people of Michigan are having a tough time
staying afloat.... then they should wake up!

There are already water fights happening in Michigan!

Posted by Rhonda Huff, Evart, Michigan - Friday, November 13, 2009 at 10:46 a.m.

Yes,there are water laws and the Compact is a great first step, but there are loopholes in both that need to be closed. A water battle has already occured: MCWC vs Nestle. A 5th generation resident had the stream in front of his home harmed because a land owner up stream wanted to pump water for sale from the same stream. That case only effected a small local area, but what about a larger senerio, such as dryer states out west or foreign countries? We all want the water on or flowing through our property protected and we should want the same for all of Michigan's waters. We need to all support Dan Scripp's bill.

Thank you Jim Olson for the clarification.

Posted by Mr. Sitzema, Charlevoix - Friday, November 13, 2009 at 10:41 a.m.

I would like to know however, since I do have a right to a reasonable use of the water under my property, can the state charge me for the use of that water under this bill.

This doesn't feel right..... my instincts are telling me something totally different

Posted by Mia Basmas, Traverse City - Thursday, November 12, 2009 at 7:27 p.m.

What is this House Bill supposed to do, that the
Great Lakes Compact hasn't already covered?
Please read The Great Lakes Compact:
"The Great Lakes Basin Compact -- created through the collective legislative action of its member states and later granted congressional consent through Public Law 90-419".
http://www.glc.org/about/glbc.html

I believe this House Bill by Rep. Dan Scripps
may be intended to open the door for possibly
other means.

It's good to pose questions.

Posted by Rhonda Cotner, Traverse City - Thursday, November 12, 2009 at 6:44 p.m.

It seems to me that no rights are being or will be infringed. Groundwater law is established. Glad folks are vigilant. No need to keep quiet. Also, humble apologies Channels 7 & 4.

no more laws

Posted by paul anders, gaylord - Thursday, November 12, 2009 at 6:23 p.m.

If there has been no problem, and the lawmaker sees no problem coming then why worry about it? Isn't there bigger problems? The whole idea behind a law is to leave it open for interpretation so lawyers HAVE to get involved. Its a business generator that strips a normal citizen of thier rights because they would probably not have the money to fight the opposition. Show me a law that doesn't have the words resonable or probable (both open to a persons opinion therefore debatable) and I will gladly keep quiet.

Thank you for clarifying this, Mr. Olson

Posted by Rhonda Cotner, Traverse City - Thursday, November 12, 2009 at 6:23 p.m.

I hope the news folk at Channels 4 & 10 will note this.
There is no need to make this bill into a controversy.
I hope the concerns have been allayed.

Great Lakes Advocate

Posted by Gary Wilson, Chicago - Thursday, November 12, 2009 at 5:56 p.m.

The Scripps bill is good for citizens, business, and everyone who cares about Michigan's water resources.

It does nothing to take away reasonable use of water and does everything to protect that same reasonable use.

As a former Michigan resident who still has ties to the state, I urge Michigan residents to embrace and support the Scripps bill.

It will allow Michigan to once again be a leader in managing the resource that the the state is so well known for, water.

gw

Water Rights Must remain in the public trust

Posted by Peggy Case, Thompsonville, Mi - Thursday, November 12, 2009 at 5:24 p.m.

The citizens of Michigan already hold, as part of existing constitutional precedent, the waters of the state, including the groundwater which is connected to the surface water through the hydrologic cycle. The Scripps bill only reinforces and clarifies this fact so there is no question with regard to the public trust. Water is part of the commons and has been for a long time. Scripps and those who support his initiative simply want it to stay that way. Property owners do not own the water. Water doesn't stay in one place. We want to protect your use of the water, as well as the use of the ecosystem we all need for survival. We cannot allow water to be privatized and become a commodity to trade on the world market to the highest bidder. Only the rich will have it then, and the rest of us will be living in a desert.
The Benzie County Water Council supports the Scripps bill

Welcome Move by Rep. Scripps

Posted by Dave Dempsey, Minneapolis - Thursday, November 12, 2009 at 5:18 p.m.

Rep. Scripps has introduced common-sense legislation to prevent water barons from other states and countries from taking our water. Since groundwater feeds rivers and lakes and ultimately the Great Lakes, preventing commercialization of Great Lakes water means assuring protections for groundwater. The bill will in no way interfere with the reasonable use of groundwater by any private party for drinking water or other personal/on-property uses. Anyone against this bill, knowingly or unknowingly, is against Great Lakes protection.

Attorney and Acting Chair, Flow for Water Coalition

Posted by Jim Olson, Traverse City - Thursday, November 12, 2009 at 4:56 p.m.

The Scripps bill does NOT alter or take away any rights to use water by anyone. The ownership of land has never extended, and does not extend, to ownership of the water beneath one's property. The ownership of land grants the right to use water subject to reasonable use and without ownership and right to sell for private gain or commodity as an export. The public's trust in water is an ancient doctrine embedded in our common law of property ownership and water. The Scripps bill merely confirms this so the State and private interests outside large corporations cannot take and sell the water out from under landowners, businesses, communities, or the public who use and rely on water for survival, quality of live, and recreation. Hence, the private landowner and his or her right to use water is actually PROTECTED by the Scripps bill, NOT UNDERMINED.

Preserve the waters of the Great Lakes Basin. Please support Dan Scripps Public Trust bill to keep both private and public rights of Michigan citizens in our water from being confiscated or taken over by those who want to export it for their own gain under the guise of NAFTA and international trade agreements.

If you want to understand the real background of what is going on, see UP North Channel 2 filmed program on "Water Wars" and Export versus State's sovereignty over water for all of us, private landowners or members of the public. Also sign the pledge at www.flowforwater.org. Read about the work of Michigan Citizens for Water Conservation against Nestle. www.saveMIwater.org. This is a matter of individual liberty and community survival and economic and environmental sustainability.

Public Trust.

Posted by Mr. Sitzema, Charlevoix - Thursday, November 12, 2009 at 1:15 p.m.

(2) The waters of the state, including groundwater, are held in trust by the state. The state shall protect these waters and other natural resources that are subject to the public trust for the benefit of present and future generations.

Dan Scripps, the bill says "The waters of the state, including groundwater." When and where did I cede ownership of the water beneath my property to the state? And is the state going to purchase ownership of that water from me at say $1 per gallon x how ever many gallons of water flow under my land per year? I believe this would endanger my rights to the water under my land.
I urge the Republicans and Democrats to vote against this bill.

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